Hayley Smilie - PDL NSW / ACT local advisory committee member | Professional Officer for PDL | Pharmacist

Hayley Smilie is on the PDL NSW / ACT local advisory committee and is a Professional Officer for PDL. With over 20 years’ experience as a registered pharmacist, Hayley has worked as a manager in a community pharmacy, as a hospital pharmacist, pharmacist preceptor for student placements and national coordinator for a highly regarded intern training program.

Hayley has written continuing education, worked as a rural remote Section 100 supply and coordination pharmacist in remote indigenous communities and practised as a registered pharmacist in Great Britain. Hayley also has extensive experience in risk management and as a risk consultant and is passionate about professional support for pharmacists.

You can find Hayley Smilie on LinkedIn.

Do you have questions about your pharmacy career? Then contact us or meet our team.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to Your Pharmacy Career podcast

0:03

proudly brought to you by Raven's

0:05

Recruitment Australia's leading

0:07

specialist Pharmacy recruitment agency

0:09

the podcast series is being created to

0:11

shine a light on the diverse and

0:13

inspiring careers of Australia's

0:14

pharmacists each episode will focus on

0:17

the varied career opportunities within

0:18

the pharmacy industry by exploring the

0:21

career paths taken by leaders in the

0:22

fields of Community Pharmacy Hospital

0:25

industry government and professional

0:28

organizations careers never follow a

0:30

defined path everyone's story is

0:32

different and unique in their own way

0:34

the podcast series will help you

0:36

discover the world of opportunities that

0:37

exist and reveal Pathways to achieve

0:40

your dreams and aspirations whether you

0:43

are a pharmacy student early career

0:45

pharmacist or simply looking for a

0:47

change at any stage of your career the

0:49

podcast series is designed to help you

0:51

navigate ways into a career and a life

0:53

that you love your host of the podcast

0:55

series is Allie Xu Allie herself a

0:58

pharmacist is now the founder of of

1:00

global Pharmacy entrepreneurs and a

1:02

passionate advocate for pharmacist to

1:03

grow innovate Excel and make a lasting

1:06

impact in the world it's now over to our

1:09

host Allie Xu welcome to your Pharmacy

1:11

career podcast this is Allie Xu happy New

1:14

Year hope you all had a wonderful

1:17

Christmas and New Year break to all the

1:20

pharmacists who worked during the

1:21

holidays thank you for your tireless

1:23

efforts and hard

1:25

work today I'm excited to speak to a

1:28

senior pharmacist from PDL Hayley

1:32

Smilie Hayley is on the PDL New South

1:34

Wales act local advisory committee and

1:39

is a professional officer for

1:41

PDL with over 20 years experience as a

1:45

registered pharmacist Hayley has worked

1:48

as a manager in a Community Pharmacy as

1:51

a hospital pharmacist pharmacist

1:53

preceptor for student placements and

1:57

National coordinator for a highly

1:59

regarded intern training program she has

2:02

authored continuing Pharmacy education

2:05

materials worked as a rural remote

2:08

section 100 Supply officer and

2:11

coordinated pharmacists in remote

2:14

indigenous

2:15

communities she has also practiced as a

2:19

registered pharmacist in the UK Hayley

2:22

has extensive experience in Risk

2:24

Management as a risk consultant she is

2:28

passionate about professional support

2:30

for pharmacists in this episode Hayley

2:33

shared with us her Pharmacy Journey from

2:36

a community pharmacist to working for

2:38

the PSA Pharmacy Guild and now being the

2:42

professional officer for

2:44

PDL in addition Hayley worked us through

2:47

real scenarios to help early career

2:50

pharmacists reduce errors and minimize

2:53

risks in the dispensary if you are

2:56

interested in the inner workings of the

2:58

PDL and how they can help you on your

3:01

Pharmacy Journey this is the episode for

3:05

you without further Ado let's welcome

3:08

Hayley hi Hayley welcome to Your Pharmacy

3:11

Career podcast thanks for having me Allie

3:14

it's great to be here very excited to

3:16

have you here CU you have over 20 years

3:18

of experience in Pharmacy tell us about

3:22

your Pharmacy journey I have been

3:24

working in Pharmacy since 1995 I started

3:28

way back when as a SHO assistant looking

3:30

after baby care sections and vacuuming

3:33

the floors on a Thursday night I'm sure

3:35

many um students and interns would

3:37

relate to that um as a starting place I

3:40

actually started working in Pharmacy

3:43

initially because my next door neighbor

3:44

was a pharmacist and he owned a pharmacy

3:47

um and I wanted to study medicine and be

3:50

a doctor so I thought well Pharmacy's

3:53

probably the closest you can get to that

3:56

until University and graduation so I

3:59

talk job there um and really really

4:03

enjoyed working in Pharmacy and I guess

4:05

talking to the people and the patients

4:07

and the relationships you develop just

4:09

looking at your amazing resume you're

4:12

allrounder you've been working hospitals

4:15

and you also worked in the UK indeed yes

4:18

and also different Community pharmacies

4:20

you worked at PSA and the guild and you

4:22

worked everywhere now PDL well I think

4:25

you're the perfect person for us to come

4:27

to ask for advice yeah defin defin itely

4:29

had a very varied background and I've

4:32

had the opportunity I guess experience a

4:34

lot of different aspects of Pharmacy and

4:37

the profession um and and how the degree

4:40

that you get to study Pharmacy can be

4:43

used in a huge variety of different

4:45

roles um and you're really not limited

4:48

in what you use that for looking at your

4:51

resim from 2005 to 2006 your work at

4:54

Humpty do and 2008 you're a different

4:58

Pharm about that yeah so look I was

5:02

married to a Navy officer so I actually

5:05

moved on the posting cycle every 18

5:09

months and I'm not talking a move from

5:11

like a different suburb to a different

5:14

suburb in Sydney for example um but I

5:17

worked in Darwin for two years and then

5:19

I worked in Cur and then Sydney and cans

5:23

and back to camera so I guess I moved

5:26

around not necessarily by choice um but

5:30

you know because of the relationship

5:32

that I was in but I did take it as an

5:34

opportunity every time that I settled in

5:37

a new location I guess to try something

5:39

a little bit different um so not just go

5:42

straight to Community Pharmacy which you

5:45

know I might be familiar with or not

5:46

just go to straight to Hospital Pharmacy

5:49

um but certainly to try something a

5:51

little bit different in there and know

5:54

get that experience I guess um something

5:56

a little bit just out of the box so yeah

5:58

you mentioned Humpty Doo so yes I did

6:00

work in Darwin um I work for an

6:04

organization that did section 100 Supply

6:07

to remote Aboriginal communities that

6:09

wasn't the one in humped do um but as

6:12

part of that role I got to fly in and

6:14

out of the little indigenous communities

6:17

um in the north far Northern Territory

6:19

and also down in the north of uh Western

6:22

Australia and um I got to go in there

6:25

and I guess really see indigenous

6:28

communities and and how medications are

6:31

handled in those communities and provide

6:34

expertise as a pharmacist in that space

6:36

as well so it was really interesting and

6:38

then I got pregnant with my first child

6:41

so I couldn't fly in those tiny little

6:43

planes anymore um because they weren't

6:44

pressurized so that's when I took the

6:47

role at um Humpty Doo Pharmacy um which

6:50

is a really like it's about an hour out

6:53

of DN and you see a lot of tropical

6:56

conditions out there so things like

6:58

mango rash that you don't come across

7:01

many other places um in Australia so

7:04

certainly interesting very very

7:05

interesting well what are those

7:07

experiences in the Aboriginal

7:09

communities help to you later on in your

7:12

career I actually had an interest in

7:15

indigenous Health before I even finished

7:16

uni and I went and did a placement up on

7:19

the taway islands North of Darwin while

7:22

I was still a student at Uni and

7:24

certainly for me it was an area of need

7:28

and an area of of I guess not such good

7:31

health outcomes where the rest of

7:33

Australia does have better health

7:35

outcomes so certainly seeing that

7:37

firsthand has definitely shaped the way

7:40

that my career has progressed and also

7:43

that I look at Health as a a societal

7:47

matter rather than just an individual

7:49

health matter Jud an early career

7:52

pharmacist been working in one Pharmacy

7:54

for a while and we feel like every day

7:56

and now is very similar what would you

7:59

say to those pharmacist Community

8:01

Pharmacy on a day in day out basis can

8:04

seem tedious and you can really feel

8:07

like you're not necessarily cutting

8:08

through and you're not necessarily

8:10

making a difference but in actual fact

8:13

you are and for each and every person

8:15

that comes into the pharmacy that

8:17

interacts with you you are making a

8:19

difference on an individual

8:20

level um so I think that would be the

8:22

first thing I would say um is even if

8:25

you do feel like you're not having that

8:29

effect iess that cut through you are

8:31

making a difference even just being in a

8:33

Community Pharmacy as far as stepping

8:36

out and venturing past your comfort

8:39

zones it's a difficult thing to do some

8:41

people are more comfortable with change

8:43

than other people some people are more

8:45

willing to take risks in my career part

8:49

of the reason I changed jobs so often

8:51

was because I didn't have a choice I was

8:54

relocating so it

8:57

realistically I may not have changed my

9:00

jobs as often if that wasn't the case

9:02

but in saying that I do really like a

9:04

challenge and I will get out there and I

9:07

guess give everything a go once even if

9:09

I don't end up finding that it suits me

9:12

or that it you know is my Niche I still

9:15

think it's worth trying it so if you get

9:17

an opportunity grab it with both hands

9:20

the worst that's going to happen is

9:21

you'll find out that it's not where you

9:23

want to be and it'll be an experienced

9:26

add to your resume or your history at

9:30

best you might actually find a new area

9:32

that you really do enjoy and that you

9:34

really do make a difference or feel like

9:36

you make a difference speaking of adding

9:38

on your resume you have PSA and Guild on

9:41

your resume here how did you get working

9:43

for PSA or Guild organizations how did

9:47

you move from being a community

9:49

pharmacist to those organizational roles

9:53

these Pharmacy organizations are quite

9:55

large um and there's often multiple

9:58

layers of roles and things that you go

10:00

into there was a role that came up when

10:03

I was living in cans and I actually

10:05

applied for it in CRA knowing that I was

10:08

due to relocate and I didn't think I had

10:11

a chance in getting it but I threw my

10:14

hat in the ring and I put in an

10:15

application anyway and I got you know

10:18

selected for that role which is very

10:20

fortunate the role ended up largely

10:23

being relating to reviewing the APF um

10:27

the Australian pharmaceutical formula um

10:29

which is one of the publications of the

10:31

PSA so certainly um it was a very

10:34

interesting role and something I had

10:36

never thought that in my career I would

10:38

do because you see the APF when you go

10:40

through uni and you you don't know what

10:43

goes on behind the scenes in making that

10:46

publication um and there's a lot of

10:48

really really Highly Educated people um

10:51

that write um and review and are

10:53

involved in that content development by

10:55

and large a lot of the opportunities

10:57

that I've got have been opportunistic

11:00

and I've seen them and I've just gone

11:02

for them important lesson we learned

11:04

from that is just go for it so once you

11:08

worked with PSA and then the guild and

11:10

then you're more into the pharmacist

11:12

manager role and now work as a

11:14

professional officer with PDL yes tell

11:17

us more about that progression yeah look

11:21

I guess it was a progression over time

11:24

um I initially started at the guild

11:28

working in CPD accreditation so

11:31

reviewing and accrediting um

11:33

applications for continuing professional

11:35

development for pharmacists um and look

11:38

I certainly found that really really

11:40

interesting and also challenging at

11:41

times and also involved in the

11:43

accreditation space so the quality Care

11:45

pharmacy program um and you know

11:48

supporting the development of that

11:50

program I then moved into a different

11:52

role within the guild um and did intern

11:55

training program um for the guild as

11:57

well so look at was an evolution even

12:00

within the same organization I moved

12:02

roles in that space um and I love

12:05

supporting younger pharmacists intern

12:07

students um so that to me was a natural

12:11

progression moving from The Guild I

12:14

actually took a break out of Pharmacy

12:17

for a couple of years um and when I say

12:19

out of Pharmacy I don't mean I was

12:21

completely not attached to Pharmacy I

12:23

still worked in a Community Pharmacy I

12:26

still you know kept up with my

12:28

continuing professional development um

12:30

but I actually went and worked for one

12:31

of big four consulting firms for about 3

12:34

years and when I was there I I started

12:38

branching more into organizational

12:40

change and risk management on a higher

12:42

level um and looking at you know some of

12:45

the processes and procedures within the

12:48

Department of Health and state

12:50

governments as well as defense um and

12:53

the other sort of bodies so that was my

12:56

Stepping Stone from there into PDL which

12:59

is a

13:00

combination I kind of think of it as my

13:02

sweet spot a combination between risk

13:04

management and also member support and

13:06

pharmacist support so I really like

13:09

being able to combine those two

13:11

backgrounds in one role what's it like

13:14

working for these organizations I think

13:17

a lot of the time you don't know what

13:20

it's like until you get into that role

13:22

and a lot of it is learning on the job

13:25

so again you've got to have that Comfort

13:27

level in getting out of your comfort own

13:29

being prepared to try new things and

13:33

fail and learn and keep learning um you

13:37

know one of the biggest things is not

13:39

not allowing a setback to stop you from

13:41

moving forward so use it as a learning

13:44

experience and use it as your next

13:46

stepping stone for what you want to do

13:49

after that and learning from each

13:51

experience in that sort of way what do

13:54

you do as a pharmacist working for PDL

13:56

by and large a lot of my role is

13:58

supporting members so supporting

14:00

pharmacists at the other end of the

14:02

phone um I'm part of a team of four so

14:04

there's only four of us we're a really

14:06

really small team so regardless of

14:09

whether you call during the day or at 2:

14:12

a.m. in the morning you're actually just

14:14

going to get one of the four of us on

14:15

the phone um at any time of

14:18

day what I do in that role again

14:22

supporting members um and I always like

14:24

to think of it as you know being that

14:27

Lifeline when it's worst day possible so

14:31

you might have had a really big mistake

14:35

or a really hard interaction with a

14:39

customer somebody screaming at you which

14:41

unfortunately we're seeing a little bit

14:43

more often at the moment and being able

14:46

to pick up the phone and speak to

14:47

somebody that just gets it um and gets

14:50

how difficult it can be at the end of

14:53

the day in

14:55

Pharmacy for me is one of the biggest

14:58

reasons I am there to support other

15:00

pharmacists part of the um role as a

15:04

professional officer is supporting

15:06

pharmacist that have made an error and

15:09

have a regulatory complaint whether it

15:11

be with ARA one of the state Regulators

15:14

um you can call us and that's what your

15:16

Indemnity insurance is for to support

15:18

you in that space um but if you have a

15:21

really um challenging interaction with a

15:24

customer as well that's another time

15:27

where you know there's no guarant gue

15:29

that it won't escalate and they won't

15:31

later make a complaint so the way that

15:33

you handle that interaction even in the

15:35

first stages can be really really

15:38

crucial um and we do say to people look

15:40

pick up the phone and call us because

15:43

you know if there particularly if

15:45

there's something in writing we can help

15:47

you to respond to that in a way that is

15:50

going to support you to move forward uh

15:53

what are some advice you can give us

15:56

especially if we're early career files

15:59

yeah look it is really difficult um

16:02

particularly as an early career

16:03

pharmacist it's really difficult to Know

16:05

Your Capacity um and to know when you're

16:10

starting to reach what I call it as the

16:13

orange Zone where you starting to not

16:16

necessarily check things clearly um so

16:22

and where you're getting quite stressed

16:23

and pressured um and then that has a

16:26

flow on impact to your work so I think

16:29

it is important um if you're not sure to

16:32

just slow down take your time to do

16:35

things um it it is challenging sometimes

16:39

because you will have Pharmacy staff

16:40

that don't understand the

16:42

responsibilities that you have on your

16:44

shoulders as the registered pharmacist

16:46

or as the intern pharmacist and they are

16:49

simply seeing the impatient customer on

16:51

the other side of the counter and

16:52

pushing pushing pushing you know hurry

16:54

up hurry up hurry up and that can be a

16:56

really difficult situation to manage um

16:59

but look I would just say take your time

17:01

because it's much better to take a few

17:02

extra seconds in checking it than to

17:04

have to manage an incident because

17:06

you've handed out the wrong medication

17:08

to somebody and I think there's still

17:12

quite a lack of understanding in the

17:14

general population of the role of a

17:16

pharmacist um and that we don't simply

17:19

stick labels on packets and we do a lot

17:23

lot more in the background um to make

17:26

sure that their medication is safe and

17:29

appropriate for them and they just don't

17:31

realize any of that so I think there

17:32

still is quite an education piece needed

17:35

there for what pharmacists do I'm so

17:37

curious what you see like what are the

17:39

incidents for how ARA would give

17:41

pharmacist notification and what would

17:44

people complain about unfortunately the

17:47

answer is people can complain about

17:49

anything to a

17:51

regulator there doesn't even necessarily

17:54

need to have been an error involved or

17:58

an incident involved they can just be

18:01

unhappy with the fact that you wouldn't

18:03

provide their schedule8 medicine earlier

18:06

than the repeat interval and they can

18:08

still Lodge a complaint about that um so

18:11

obviously there's the balance between

18:15

patient rights and opinions and thoughts

18:17

and complaints and then what your

18:20

regulatory obligations and

18:21

responsibilities are in that space so

18:25

one of the things we do is we say to

18:26

people look stick to your guns you know

18:29

if the repeat interval is 20 days don't

18:32

dispense it before that because

18:33

ultimately The Regulators if that goes

18:36

to a complaint when they see your

18:38

response they will see that you weren't

18:41

in a position to be able to supply that

18:43

early and that was an unreasonable

18:45

expectation and demand of the

18:47

patient um so look there is a balance

18:51

between again those softer skills and

18:54

communicating to patients about it um

18:57

and also adhering to your

18:59

regulatory uh boundaries so I'll give

19:02

you one example that I've had recently

19:04

in a Community Pharmacy cuz I still work

19:06

in Pharmacy these days um and I have had

19:10

a patient come in on prabin um and when

19:14

I went to dispense it I looked and saw

19:17

that they only had it 2 days earlier and

19:19

it was a supply of 56 so I went out to

19:21

them and I said look you only had it two

19:23

days ago what's the story or got lost

19:27

when in the dog's mouth or whatever

19:28

Whatever It Whatever the reason is um

19:31

and I said to them look well

19:33

unfortunately because I work on a

19:34

weekend I'm going to have to contact

19:36

your doctor to authorize Supply at this

19:39

stage but what I can do is I can give

19:42

you two days Supply to get you through

19:44

until I can talk to your doctor oh no no

19:46

don't worry about it but it's coming up

19:48

with those Solutions where you're still

19:50

meeting your clinical responsibilities

19:52

by not giving out an entire box of 56 to

19:55

a patient um but if they're genuinely is

19:58

a need for two days Supply to get them

20:01

through to seeing a doctor you're

20:02

meeting that and and having it that in

20:05

between um so that would be the sort of

20:09

situation where it can be a really

20:11

difficult um you know decision to make

20:16

um and in this instance the patient said

20:18

no no no no I need the whole lot and I

20:21

said well I'm really sorry but just

20:22

can't assist you

20:25

um but it can be more difficult I guess

20:28

for young pharmacists

20:30

to stick to their boundaries around

20:33

those sorts of areas and just having

20:35

like a supportive voice on the other end

20:36

of the phone saying hey I get it like

20:38

it's really tough um but be polite and

20:42

firm and stick to your boundaries it

20:45

probably would be a very different

20:46

situation if we were talking about a

20:48

schedule 8 medicine but because it was a

20:50

schedule 4D medicine you have that

20:52

little bit more uh leeway to be able to

20:55

provide support but it again every

20:58

situation varies so that's why we say

21:00

look if you're ever unsure give us a

21:02

buzz we're more than happy to provide

21:04

that support and that can be a little

21:06

bit more difficult when it's a weekend

21:09

or an unfamiliar Pharmacy and you don't

21:11

have the professional supports that you

21:13

might otherwise have have you ever seen

21:15

a pharmacist get in trouble when we say

21:17

no and something happened to not supply

21:20

the

21:21

medication yeah look I think I mentioned

21:24

before that

21:25

every every situation is is a possible

21:30

risk either way um and if you do decline

21:33

Supply there is a risk that the doctor

21:35

will be upset about it and we'll make a

21:37

complaint about it so from my

21:40

perspective it is a balancing of risks

21:42

and looking at if I do Supply this what

21:46

are the possible outcomes and if I don't

21:49

Supply it what are the possible outcomes

21:52

because some people think by not

21:54

supplying that takes away all the risk

21:56

and unfortunately that's not the case

21:59

um there are risks with not supplying as

22:01

well um and it does require a complaint

22:06

from say from a doctor or from a patient

22:09

but there still is a risk there um and

22:12

obviously depending on the nature of the

22:14

medication if there were complications

22:16

from not supplying it there could

22:18

potentially be some liability there as

22:20

well so it it is a difficult balance to

22:24

get right um and it's not as cut and

22:28

dryers you know I just don't Supply it

22:30

and then it's not my problem um because

22:33

it it could well be still um but again

22:37

that's where you know having a

22:38

conversation with somebody that will say

22:40

hey look this are the options if you go

22:42

down path a these are the options if you

22:44

go down path B um gives you that ability

22:48

to make a little bit more informed

22:50

judgment as to what risk you're prepared

22:52

to take on well thank you what are some

22:55

last advice you want to leave with the

22:57

early C pharmacist

22:59

one of the pieces of advice comes back

23:01

to knowledge and it's know what you know

23:06

and know it well and stand up for

23:08

yourself and know what you don't know

23:11

and who to turn to where to go where to

23:13

look it up so know know that really

23:16

clearly so that you don't try and take a

23:19

guess on something that you don't really

23:20

know the second bit of information um or

23:23

advice I would give is around taking

23:26

opportunities as they come up

23:29

um if you see something even if you're

23:32

not sure whether you are qualified are

23:36

experienced all of those types of things

23:38

if you see a job come up that you think

23:41

gosh that looks so interesting I would

23:43

love to do that go for it put your hand

23:47

up because you're not going to get it if

23:51

you don't apply so take those

23:54

opportunities put your hat in the ring

23:56

you might not get it every time but go

23:58

for it well thank you so much Hayley

24:01

thank you for listening to this episode

24:03

of the your Pharmacy career podcast

24:05

proudly brought to you by Raven's

24:07

Recruitment Australia's leading

24:09

specialist Pharmacy recruitment agency

24:11

if you enjoyed this episode and know

24:13

anyone else who you think would benefit

24:15

from it we would be grateful if you

24:17

could share it with them together we

24:19

help even more pharmacists develop a

24:20

career and life they love if you have

24:23

any questions or suggestions about

24:25

future podcast episodes please reach out

24:27

to us via email info@ravensrecruitment.com.au