Caroline Diamantis - National Vice President of PSA, a pharmacy owner, and an advocate for the profession

Caroline Diamantis is a passionate community pharmacist with over 30 years of experience in pharmacy ownership.

Shortly after completing her Bachelor of Pharmacy at Sydney University, she was able to fulfil her dream of buying her first pharmacy, where she realised the importance of differentiating pharmacists as professionals, advocating clinical pharmacy and Practising at Full Scope - particularly in a Community Setting.

Caroline is determined to achieve our Full scope of Clinical Practice, Expansion of Clinical Services which MUST be remunerated by Govt. We play pivotal role at the Healthcare Frontline ensuring reduced emergency hospitalisations. This must be recognised and reimbursed.

Being a director on various Boards has allowed for particular advocacy for gender diversity and Women in Leadership positions across the Profession, including Pharmacy Ownership. Mentoring early career pharmacists (ECPs) into ownership and leadership roles is  a particular passion with programs designed to support and engage.

Caroline is a passionate advocate for recognition of the profession during crisis, seeking acknowledgement and financial support from the NSW government. She is committed to addressing workforce issues, including mentorship to ECPs and support and advocacy for appropriate pharmacist salaries, and determined to achieve full scope of clinical practice. 

You can find Caroline Diamantis on LinkedIn.

Do you have questions about your pharmacy career? Then contact us or meet our team.

Transcript

Speaker 3 (00:00)
Welcome to Your Pharmacy Career Podcast, proudly produced by Raven's Recruitment, the experts in pharmacy career and locum services for over 30 years. Every episode is your gateway to new opportunities in the pharmacy profession, from expert advice to inspiring success stories. We're here to spark ideas, guide your career and help you achieve your goals. Stay tuned. The next step in your pharmacy journey starts here.

Speaker 2 (00:26)
Hi everyone and welcome to your Pharmacy Career Podcast. As you know, I am your host, Kristi Lee Patterson, and I'm so thrilled to have you with us today. Our guest today is an absolute powerhouse in the pharmacy profession and she's not last from the Women in Pharmacy season for the reason that she is least.

I want to go out with a bang. And so I have Caroline Diamantis She is a passionate pharmacist, a business owner and a strong advocate for professional services in pharmacy. She's the current national vice president of the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia, also known as the PSA and a board member of the Pharmacy Council of New South Wales and an external advisor at Sydney university. And I'm sure there's.

plenty of other things that you've done as well that I can't put into just one or two sentences. And so Caroline, I just want to say a big thank you to coming onto the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:23)
Good morning, Christy Lee, and thank you so much for those very kind words. And it's an absolute honor and a privilege to be able to share some of my story and particularly reminiscing on the early years of my career. bit of nostalgia crept in as I remembered the tough times and we tend to look at a person the way they are today and don't really know the backstory. So it's wonderful for me to reminisce and I'm honored and privileged to be here sharing some of my journey with you today.

Speaker 2 (01:53)
thank you so much. And what you've just said there, I really want to start at the beginning of your career, because you're right when you see someone where they are today. And sometimes, especially if you're a younger pharmacist or even a student, you might look to someone and think, wow, my gosh, they've achieved so much. I could never possibly amount to that. So let's start right at the beginning.

Why did you decide to become a pharmacist? I know that your dad was a pharmacist, so I'm guessing there was probably a little bit of influence there from him, but yeah, over to you.

Speaker 1 (02:25)
Thank you. You're absolutely right. My dad was a pharmacist. He trained at a British university in Alexandria in Egypt and actually got to work in many European hospitals before he made his journey out here, spent a lot of time in the Italian hospital there. When he came here and bought his first pharmacy, he was in Marrowville. Marrowville was where all the migrants landed. And coming from Alexandria, he actually spoke seven languages and he created this

Speaker 2 (02:51)
Wow.

Speaker 1 (02:54)
amazing hub of primary healthcare before those words even existed in the 60s and the 70s. And I was just in awe of how much help he could give to his community. The migrants that were coming, some that came had very little English. Dad's English was impeccable reading and writing, so there was sort of not that disadvantage that others had. But he was helping families.

at the forefront of the community to the point in our first house that we lived in in my very early years, I remember being six and seven years old, we lived in the house behind the pharmacy. It was all a task.

Speaker 2 (03:32)
Probably felt like you lived in the pharmacy from the sounds of it.

Speaker 1 (03:36)
Yeah, because the pharmacy was open until very late hours because our lounge room was just behind the registered premises of the pharmacy and we just leave the doors open. There was a ding-dong bell. remember it would go off at all hours and people would come in. And look, I know that dad was

passionate about helping people that were struggling with the immigration, struggling with the language. People would bring in documents and forms to fill out because they had to fill out a form for their new job or they had to fill out a form because they were renting a house and they had to fill out. And dad would do all of that too. But one of the things that really stuck in my mind was he would say, see that window, the first window down the side street, knock on that window.

any time of the day or night if your child is sick, if you need help, if you need support. So there was no such thing as the pharmacy being closed. So I fell in love with being able to help the community and also in love with I guess the scope of what we could do.

Speaker 2 (04:33)
That's really, really exciting that you were able to see the impact of that community aspect of what pharmacy is from such an early age. And I think that definitely had a big impact on you. But then also as like a migrant family as well, like that would have also been quite difficult as well, I think. And I'm sure that's probably had an impact on you and your life.

Speaker 1 (04:56)
Yep, absolutely has. know, the more we experience, the broader our scope of understanding. And until you've walked in somebody else's shoes or have vision or insight into what they're experiencing, you can't ever really imagine sort of people's hardship. And I think health for that time in the 70s, I think health was something that people as migrants really didn't know how to grasp. So the local community pharmacy, and especially one that spoke your language, was an

absolute gem. Dad did really well out of it in that he got a lot of professional satisfaction. yeah, I know that he commented and you'd be interested to hear this, think, Christy Lee, I know that he commented that having worked in some of the European hospitals and pharmacies before he came to Australia, he did always say that it felt like going backwards coming here. I know that

Speaker 2 (05:48)
interesting.

Speaker 1 (05:49)
I didn't want to say that in an offensive way, but the pharmacists in the 70s and the 60s in Europe were allowed to prescribe and diagnose and they could give antibiotics and they were vaccinating and they were assisting and practicing to a much higher level of scope of practice than when he came here. He was quite surprised that a lot of that was not allowed. It was just wasn't part of our remit as pharmacists. mean, we all know times are changing and it's taken 50 years to get here, but

And it's going to be an amazing next decade. I'm just thrilled and super excited to be able to see the changes that are coming and participate in those changes before I have to retire. But yeah, that was one of the things that stuck in my mind as well and almost incentivized me as part of the work that I did in advocacy, wanting to make change, hearing how good things were in other countries. yeah, lots of influencing factors for me as a very young, you know,

10 or 11 year old.

Speaker 2 (06:51)
Yeah, absolutely. And also being able to see your dad as a business owner as well. So not just a pharmacist, but running his own business, running a family as well. And if I guess you could say you followed in his footsteps and one of, guess your biggest career milestones, or in my opinion, maybe I could be wrong, you might prove me wrong, was purchasing your first pharmacy. I think if you think about

the time and the context of what was happening when you bought your first pharmacy. It's so different to what people and guess women experience. And so I'd love to hear what some of these challenges that you faced and then how did you overcome them?

Speaker 1 (07:34)
was

a lot of bias and it was really hard. had two things working against me. I bought my first pharmacy, I had just turned 23. And it was a goal from when I was very young. And I don't regret it, but I didn't ever want to work with my father. I wanted to forge my own career. So I did not go in partnership with him, of course.

I worked with him throughout my whole teenage life as my little job and through uni as well. We were not a rich family. I had three jobs putting myself through uni, including working at Fisher Library at Sydney Uni, which was a fantastic job because I could just go straight from lectures and work till 11 o'clock and all my mates would hang around at the library. That was the go-to place. But I sort of said I'm going to buy my first pharmacy as as I finish uni. And then I started meeting roadblocks. I had my age.

and my gender both working against me. I remember I met a fantastic mentor though, and I feel very encouraged. And this mentor actually looked after me. He was an older man in his, well, I was in my twenties and he must have been in his forties, but I feel very blessed that I had this wonderful mentor who took me on that journey. But when I went to the bank to borrow money, the bank manager, and it was...

New South Wales, Bank of New South Wales. It was the old days you had a bank manager and I went to him and said, I'd like to borrow all this money. And they said, where's your husband? And I said, I don't understand how that question relates. I don't have a husband. And it was a very interesting story because they had so much bias against me in terms of, what are you doing?

Speaker 2 (09:06)
well.

Speaker 1 (09:19)
You're only going to get married and have children and you'll have this big loan and how are you going to juggle owning a business? So there was so much, so many roadblocks and so much negativity around it. But I didn't realize that hearing those things only inspired me to fight harder and push back harder. And unfortunately I had to ask my dad to use his house as collateral for my loan. They wouldn't let me use the business and there were all sorts of issues in the way. However,

I did overcome them and I think what gave me encouragement was just the strength of character to go, you're not going to beat me, I'll just dig deeper.

Speaker 2 (09:55)
Yep. It almost like forced you to, yeah, keep on going and actually wanting to prove them wrong, right?

Speaker 1 (10:01)
That's right, absolutely. So it was in the late 80s. And I remember in 1989, I finally got my purchase over the line. And then all of a sudden, got myself involved in the guild because my mentor happened to be the ex president of the New South Wales branch. So it brought me into politics very quickly and said, you're going to be a spokeswoman for women in pharmacy. This was 1989. And all of a sudden we were all marching against Bob Hawke.

and his policies. So not only did I have a pharmacy, have all the burden and the very heavy work schedule, I became a boss at 23. Every person that worked in that pharmacy was much older than me. had struggled. I was young and naive. I thought they'd automatically respect me as their boss. No. I found that I had to just keep proving myself and finding clever ways of

Speaker 2 (10:50)
Yes.

Speaker 1 (10:57)
getting people to understand that, you know, this is our situation, I'm the owner, you know, you're the employees, I have every respect for you. So lots of challenges there being, again, very young and then marching in a political landscape, fighting for the professions, I guess, the rights of the profession.

Speaker 2 (11:13)
What a time, right? That sounds like you definitely were on like the forefront of change. Like I know, I feel like everyone says that like even I remember my very first APP conference. It was I think 11 years ago now. And I remember, can't, I don't remember who it was, but they're up on that main stage saying, Oh, we're at pharmacies at a crossroads. I'm like, I feel like we're always at a crossroads.

Speaker 1 (11:35)
We're always at a crossroads and there's always the next, you know, there wasn't such a thing as a pharmacy agreement then, although agreements started being signed a little bit later than that. But yeah, look, fantastic times. I guess the message, Christy Lee, to anyone like, I went into this seeing that my dad owned a business. It was a small business and he worked pretty much 24-7.

You know, my first business was in Penrith. I used to drive more than an hour each way. was before the M4 existed. I was still living in Sydney Metro and I used to work from 8am to 10pm and I remember some nights I felt it would be unsafe to drive home so I would sleep on the floor in the dispensary.

Speaker 2 (12:15)
wow, my gosh, that's giving Elon Musk vibes of sleeping in his PayPal office back in the day.

Speaker 1 (12:21)
Yeah, and I just did what I had to do. And I'd sleep on the floor in the dispensary because I knew that I'd have to open the pharmacy at eight o'clock the next day. And I worked those very long days, six days a week. And I never complained and never thought anything of it because I thought this is what you need to do to go forward in life. So I don't see young people these days, perhaps understanding that that's how hard you have to work.

Speaker 2 (12:49)
I think that is, is true to some extent. And until I decided to start my own business, yeah, you realize, it's funny, I was chatting to a friend of mine who's also started a non-pharmacy business. She's not a pharmacist. And she said, we're one of those crazy people that decided to quit their 40 hour a week job so they can work 80 hours.

Speaker 1 (13:13)
exactly what it is. You've nailed it. You really need to go in with your eyes wide open. I thought my eyes were wide open until the bank manager asked me where my husband was and then I realized then that there would be roadblocks along the way. But I still jumped in with every ounce of enthusiasm and excitement and I think that's the key. Keep your passions alive and keep your excitement going and look for what gives you energy to keep

persevering with your goals and your dreams.

Speaker 2 (13:45)
yeah, I love that. And I think that's one thing that's always stood out for me as I've known you for some time now is that passion is still always there. And I really hope that my passion still continues to be there. And I even, see people too, like the John Bells and the Warwick Plunkets of the world, the Debbie Rigby's. I think, wow, they still have so much passion for our industry so many years later where, I don't know, I think there's probably a bit of a generational shift where it's like.

my gosh, I want to retire by the time I'm 40 and just float around and do nothing. People are still like, yeah, still giving back and waking up in the morning thinking, want to make a difference. So I think that's also the type of person that is attracted to pharmacy as well. think.

Speaker 1 (14:30)
Yes, you're right. I think so too.

Speaker 2 (14:32)
Now, I also didn't know this about you. So for those that are listening, before we start the podcast, I actually get everyone to kind of fill in a form and give us some insights as to who the person is so we can delve a bit deeper. And you actually also helped assist in the development of a buying group that later turned into a franchise. So not only were you a business owner, but then obviously you saw some

form of opportunity. And for those people that are listening that maybe don't know what a buying group is, maybe you could give a short explanation as to what that is and what that experience was like for you.

Speaker 1 (15:08)
That was a very exciting time in my life. was probably three or four years into my ownership journey and it was in the 90s and my mentor and a couple of his colleagues had some really lovely visions of, you know, the buying group was about.

buying cheaper. mean, a buying group is where you get a group of independently owned pharmacies, but you all decide that if we go to the suppliers and, you know, instead of all of us buying 12 of something, we say that we commit to buying 100 of something, we'll get a better discount and then we could divide the stock between us. So there was a handful of pharmacists by that stage. So I had a nice network and at the same time, our

we called them the Three Wise Men and we created this of all the buying group. But then we started getting a bit more excited. We created a board and we ended up with a franchise. And the main gist of what the franchise was, was to support independent pharmacies, but also to assist in facilitating ownership for young people. So we would have a structure where we would have some

senior mentors or partners and then some junior partners and we would help them because we recognized how hard it was to break into ownership. in that whole decade that I was on the board of this group, so you know we created a board, I was on the board, so I was in my 30s now, I'd had my first child, my second child and I was on the board of directors and we found ways to assist independent pharmacists to become part of this franchise and

facilitate young people into ownership. That was our mantra. And they were really great times. But I was a little frustrated because even 10 years into that buying group and franchise, one woman and a whole bunch of men, and then maybe a second woman joined us. And I felt so discouraged by the fact that there was still that old school thinking that

People didn't want to commit to a massive loan by business, commit to the responsibility of running staff. The legislative requirements in owning a pharmacy are different to owning other businesses. There's a whole new layer of responsibility. You know, your standard operating procedures need to be top notch. There's a whole lot that goes into running a pharmacy. And I think people got scared off. And I think what even pushed people to get scared off was the general mindset.

the whole profession and outside of the profession, like it was for men to own businesses. That buying group turned franchise is still around and doing very, very well. I stayed in that group for 20 something years and then felt that it was time to outgrow that and go into sort of, you know, new challenges and different pursuits. But it was a wonderful time and it has facilitated so many people into ownership and they continue to do that.

Speaker 2 (17:51)
that's brilliant. And the other part I like about that story too, is that you also grew as a person, but then also as a business. And then you realize that maybe this franchise is not for you anymore. And that's completely okay too, right? Like I think that's a really important message is that you've got to stick true to your values and what suits your pharmacy and your community around your pharmacy. So for you, yeah, it was okay. We're just focusing on.

on What's Right for Us.

Speaker 1 (18:21)
Absolutely. And I do have a little funny story. I mentioned having children. I have three adult children now, but during those years I had to, did get married and have plunge to have children. I remember being at a board meeting and there were eight men and me and I was breastfeeding or, you know, because you use the breast pump during the day if someone was minding your kids, I had very supportive parents and in-laws. And of course, a husband wouldn't be where I was today without my husband who has been

to a cliche, the wind between my wings. I hope he gets to listen to this, but he probably won't. I hear you all the time. But I have to say that the section we were discussing was quite heated and we all had opinions and we're going over time and the break was coming, but it was past the break. And all of a sudden I had this thing, any woman would know that, you you have this thing called a let down and all of a sudden the whole front of my shirt was covered in milk.

was horrible. And I was so embarrassed and I'm holding the folder up and I'm trying to leave the room and they're going, chairman of the meeting saying, where are you going? We haven't finished discussing this. And I'm going, I have to run to the bathroom. Well, can't you wait? And it was just, you know, some of those challenges, I guess, when I think back that stick in your mind about, you being a woman and wanting it all.

Speaker 3 (19:38)
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Speaker 2 (19:54)
But I love that the fact that you just did it anyway, right? And I think even now there's whether you do or a woman or a minority group or something like that, there's still many firsts and sometimes it's the first people to almost like they know it's going to be really hard. Like you knew it was going to be hard, right? People are going to have challenges, but you knew that if by doing it, you were going to make it easier for those that come after you, right?

Speaker 1 (20:23)
That's

That's right. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (20:25)
I think too, it's funny to hear those, those stories that you just, you brought your, yeah, like you just did it. And as I think about my career journey and you've talked about, you also have a family, you've got kids. And I know for some women, even today, it's do you have to do one or the other? And it's almost like if you do want it all that you have to make some really big sacrifices, which I'm sure there probably has been in your life. And I'll tell you what, now that I'm a S.

step mom, and I have so much respect for moms out there that are working, let alone have their own business. Like, my gosh, trying to do, yeah, like just school pickup, right? Like it's just giving me, yeah. Like, and so you think, you know, and I did, I think when I was younger and a first manager, I probably didn't have the respect.

Speaker 1 (21:06)
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:17)
to mothers that worked for me that were older than me. And I didn't understand why they had to, I know their kid was sick or something, or they couldn't come to something, but now kind of experiencing a part of it myself, it's giving me this, this new level of respect. And so I don't know if having a family for you, if that changed your perspective on things as a business owner or just in your, your life.

Speaker 1 (21:44)
It's a really good question, Christy Lee, because I knew that I wanted children and I didn't know how I would juggle it. So a piece of key advice that I would give people, it's wonderful to see so many women owning pharmacies now. So 30 years later, 30 plus years later, we have got a different landscape. It is more acceptable for a woman to own a pharmacy. The bank will lend you money without asking who your husband is. You don't need to have all the answers before you embark.

on your journey, on your dream. You can't have all the answers. You've got to first decide what it is you want. You've got to first say, I am going to do this in a positive fashion. You say to yourself, I will get there. We don't know the roads we'll have to travel. We don't know the challenges that we'll meet. We can't map it all out in advance. So you take the plunge and what you do is you just bite, you break it down into tiny steps and you just

across each problem and solve each problem as it comes to you. And when I had the children, I didn't know what that would look like, but I had also then mentored other people into ownership. And I had several partnership pharmacies where I was mentoring other people that they almost became my children as well. So I think I never believed and never let myself think that I couldn't do it all. So I backed myself.

and I didn't know how I would do it, but I knew that I had to ask for help. At the beginning I was very proud, but then I just knew that I'd have to ask my family for help, my husband for help. We got babysitters in, we went to long daycare, we just did what we had to do. But they're very personal decisions that people will have to make as they travel their journey. I don't think there is a role.

I think you could try something and go, this for me? Yes, no, I don't like it. I don't feel comfortable. And then you might decide that you'll try a different tact. And that's perfectly okay. It's okay to think that I made a mistake. It might not be called a mistake, but you you've decided there might be a better way and you've just got to be kind to yourself. And in fact, when I'm thinking about something we discussed before we started the podcast, you know, what made

my pharmacy looked different or what was different. I knew that I didn't know everything. I knew very quickly that I didn't know everything. I had to believe and understand that you don't know everything. So I had to take that piece of humble pie. And then I started trying to learn on the journey. I started to try and find networks and hang around with people that knew more than me. Don't be the smartest person in the room. Find other people that are smarter than you and learn from them.

and find like-minded people that are passionate and learn from them. But I did stay true to myself in that I would always lead with kindness. My mantra is treating people like family. And it's a European thing as well. The generosity of spirit where people come to you, they come into my shop and I treat them as family. They come into my home and I treat them as family. And I think if you lead with kindness, it allows yourself to be a little bit vulnerable.

but at the same time that vulnerability is appealing.

Speaker 2 (24:58)
Yeah. And I think that that vulnerability gives people the opportunity to connect with you as well, whether it's a customer or a patient or yeah, staff member. Yes.

Speaker 1 (25:10)
Yeah, you know, life teaches you lessons, just open your mind to them and you know, even the worst things that can happen are there to teach you a lesson.

Speaker 2 (25:19)
Yeah, that's it. think that's really good advice. Cause I know like I've still got so many more years left in my career, although, and over just my past career already, the first 10 years is yeah, in the beginning I've

I thought I knew everything and I couldn't wait to be a pharmacy manager and yeah, let's whip this shop into shape. Yeah. And I didn't get it right. And sometimes I think, my gosh, what did those people think of me? my goodness. But then also just having confidence in yourself though, I think is also really important because, and giving it a go. And also I'm just so grateful.

That time when I was able to step up into a management position, like first year out of uni was the support of the owner. that's, and if it wasn't for him being able to do that and giving me that opportunity to make mistakes. Yeah, I wouldn't have learnt. And so I think that's really important as well as giving people that space to learn and grow.

Speaker 1 (26:19)
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I don't think you should feel too badly about what people thought of you when you were your exciting journey, because I guess at the end of the day, they can tell if you're coming from a good place. And I think if you can demonstrate just that kindness and that you're coming from a good place, people can overlook mistakes.

Speaker 2 (26:38)
Yeah, that's exactly right. Exactly right. So Caroline, we've been chatting for a little while now and there's so many things that we could kind of divert on and talk about, but is there anything in particular that you wanted to share with our listeners that maybe we haven't touched on yet?

Speaker 1 (26:56)
really liked the leadership role of being on the board and helping to influence, you know, on a smaller scale, but you know, our small buying group and franchise. It led me to realize that my ideas could matter and could make a difference. And a lot later, when my kids were in their teens, I guess, I then went and took on, put my hand up to be on the Pharmacy Guild in New South Wales and got to be an alternate national counselor as well.

And so that allowed me to become really involved in policy for the profession. It put me in touch with other passionate leaders in the profession. I loved the networks that I was making. I loved that my ideas could matter.

So I started there and then took on some other roles and then I was on the New South Wales PSA branch committee and again feeling like I was making a difference to the future of the profession and mentoring younger people and leading by example. So and then I grew into, myself being national vice president. So that was an even bigger role and something that

certainly can be challenging at times, but it also was at a time where there was some massive change going on politically with the profession, where the government was handing down policy that we were very worried about with regards to 60 day dispensing and other things. It was really quite valuable to have a voice and hear what the profession was saying and then participate in those conversations. So it's been very exciting to be an advocate for the profession under these really, I guess,

controversial times. At the same time, I put my hand up to be on the New South Wales Pharmacy Council. Now that's a very different role. That is the role of a regulator and the council is tasked with keeping the public safe. And that means that pharmacists who have made mistakes, pharmacists who have complaints made about them need to be, I guess, handled, if you like, or, you know, the complaint needs to go somewhere. And I thought I could

participate in that in a really positive way because I was still a practicing pharmacist. So being a practitioner and a clinician that understands what's going on and how mistakes might happen or how we might miss parts of legislation or misunderstand parts of legislation means that I felt I could contribute in that role. you know, there was an election and

It seems that my peers and the people that had come across in my life journey sort of were very supportive of me being in that role as well. So elected to pharmacy council, very proud of the work that we've done there because we have fostered collaboration with other pharmacy stakeholders. So we have regular meetings with the Guild and the PSA, the educators, the university deans, they participate. We also have PDL. We also have ARPRA turns up, HCCC.

So this stakeholder meeting is very collaborative, discussing where people are perhaps going down the wrong path and how we can provide consolidated information or education that can be spread between the different membership groups. So the outcome has been that there are less complaints in the last year than there have been in previous years.

Pharmacists are actually taking on board the valuable information that is coming out. I think and I believe this, it's probably not an official position of the council, but in my personal belief, I would say that I do believe that these stakeholder meetings have made a difference in allowing people to interrogate where mistakes can be made.

Speaker 2 (30:35)
Yeah. And I think that's the one point that I'll pick up on was being still practicing is that, you understand what's actually going on. And the other part of maybe misinterpreting or not understanding legislation and legislation is very actually confusing. If you're not in it all the time or exposed to it, some areas can be a bit confusing to understand. so that's where.

It's great that we've got organizations like the PSA and the guild that can actually help us to understand that legislation better.

Speaker 1 (31:07)
Exactly. And I think their focus has been more fine tuned since these stakeholder meetings and since we've been understanding that how easy it is to make some mistakes. you know, there's a lot of support for pharmacists these days compared to the generations where I was coming into the profession. And I can't help but feel a little bit proud that perhaps, you know, I identified some of the areas where there was room for improvement, room for better communication, room for collaboration amongst the various bodies. So I think we were in a better place.

I guess we should touch on scope, Christie Lee.

Speaker 2 (31:38)
Yes. And this is actually a good full circle to what we were talking about in the beginning of the conversation where you talked about your dad coming to Australia and the scope was much smaller than what he expected. So, right way.

Speaker 1 (31:53)
Yeah, one of the first battles, I guess I had to, I was on the guilt for this one and I worked with an amazing team, but one of the first battles was actually getting the New South Wales Ministry to understand that we were really well placed and more than smart enough and capable of providing vaccinations. So we actually got that over the line in 2019 or 2020 and we argued really hard.

Could have been a bit earlier, could have been 2018. But we argued really hard that countries around the world were vaccinating in pharmacy. Anyway, we got that over the line. That was a very exciting time. And it was just in time for COVID to hit. We're so proud. Our profession stood up and saved the day. We were the heroes wearing our capes. Everything had shut down. And we were actually your go-to place for everything. And we were nervous and scared and at great personal risk because

We didn't know what this mysterious virus was about and we still had to stand in our shops and we still had to follow guidelines on how to keep our staff safe. But everyone stood up and did what they needed to do. And then of course the COVID vaccinations came out and we were vaccinating thousands of people across the pharmacy. So they were really exciting times, but the upshot was that we actually established ourselves. And now I think the statistics speak for themselves where people really prefer to come to a pharmacy.

increased vaccination rates dramatically by having that extra of somewhere that you can go to get a vaccination. There was never a time where we wanted to replace doctors and that's still the case. We're offering extra avenues and offering more opportunity so that we can increase our vaccination rates, so that we can improve herd immunity and we can get people to realize that

Primary healthcare is based upon us looking after the more vulnerable people that perhaps aren't suited to a vaccination. So it's up to us. important thing because then what we've platformed from that on into now the latest announcements about increasing scope and about diagnosing and prescribing and practicing to full scope.

Speaker 2 (33:47)
Yeah.

Absolutely. I definitely think that getting immunizations was the first step in all of this. And I think we're just over 10 years since we've been able to vaccinate. And so just imagine what the next 10 years is going to look like for pharmacy. Like how exciting.

Speaker 1 (34:17)
Absolutely. And I think the other thing that really excites me is the development of all these new areas of practice. At the PSA, we really advocate for pharmacists being everywhere that medicines are. And that is a really strong and I guess important message because we are medicine experts and anywhere that there are medicines, we should be able to practice whatever that environment, whether it be a nursing home, whether it be a GP practice, whether it be

or anywhere really. And I think that the broadening areas of practice is just so exciting. To be a pharmacist now is not what it used to be where there was a very limited areas that you could work in. And that is really exciting for the future generations to know that they have choice and they can change, but they are always contributing to primary health care.

Speaker 2 (35:08)
Exactly. think that's a great message to finish on is yeah, that they're contributing to primary healthcare and we're really being recognised now for what we do really well. And as you said, medicine's knowledge is our bread and butter. And it's almost crazy to think that we're not in places where medicines are. Like it just seems pretty obvious to me really, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (35:31)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think we're sort of slowly getting there with a lot more work to be done. So really exciting times ahead for pharmacists. Whether you want to be in ownership, whether you don't, any sort of leadership positions, just back yourself. Just do it.

Speaker 2 (35:48)
Yep. Yep. Jump in and give it a go. Right. And even if it's not forever, I think one thing that I'm realizing now with our pharmacy degree is that you can forge your own path. And even if there's something that you're passionate in that doesn't exist, you can make that. What? That?

Speaker 1 (36:05)
You've been an examiner.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And forging your own way and seeing gaps in what needs to happen. And this is all be as creative as you want. mean, creativity is such an important part of building our goals and reaching our dreams. So be creative. I think also support others. If you can be a mentor, if you can help somebody else, those rewards are really quite wonderful as well.

Speaker 2 (36:34)
Absolutely. And yeah, I know if it wasn't for some of the mentors that I have at the time, I probably didn't think of them as mentors. And I think sometimes there might be this assumption that a mentor has to be this formal program that you have to have. it has to, but it's just people in your network, right? That you can reach out to and maybe bounce ideas off or give you advice about anything.

Speaker 1 (36:59)
Yep, absolutely. And just a network of people that you can call on and say, I'm feeling vulnerable or I'm feeling low or I'm confused or I've made a mistake. We've all made mistakes. Nothing wrong with making a mistake. It doesn't define you. It's just about picking yourself up, learning from it and moving forward. And that's what life's about as well.

Speaker 2 (37:20)
Absolutely. I think that's a great way to end on this podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you and learning more about you and your background and yeah, what makes you you. And I have one last question for you and that would be what's the best piece of advice you've ever received. And that could be great for our listeners to take on board for either their own careers or just their personal life in general.

Speaker 1 (37:48)
I love that you asked me that question because about two decades ago, when you're as old as me, somebody said to me, I'll quote Marianne Williamson. Somebody said to me, don't play small. They said, as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others. What that meant to me was,

Try your hardest to shine and to do good and to do right. And as you do that, you would lead by example and you give permission to other people to work with you to do the same. That really impacted me. This is a quote from our deepest fear by Marianne Williamson. And I encourage people to read her work because it just is so inspiring.

Speaker 2 (38:37)
I think that's a really, really good message to end on. Yeah. Let your light shine. Maybe that can be the title of the podcast. Having confidence in yourself as well and giving it a go, no matter what that it is. Right.

Speaker 1 (38:51)
absolutely back yourself and let your life

Speaker 2 (38:53)
Lae-Anne it. Well, thank you so much, Caroline, for joining us on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure. And we will have Caroline's details in the show notes of the podcast. So if you do want to reach out to her, all of the details will be there. Thank you so much, Caroline. Thank you

Speaker 1 (39:09)
Much Chris Lee, it's been a pleasure to share some of my story and it's also going back down memory lane.

Speaker 2 (39:16)
I hope it was all good memories.

Speaker 3 (39:18)
Thanks for tuning in to Your Pharmacy Career Podcast, proudly sponsored by the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia. The PSA is committed to empowering pharmacists through advocacy, innovation and industry-leading professional development. To become a member or learn more about how the PSA can support your career, visit www.psa.org.au. Don't forget to subscribe, share this podcast with your colleagues and join us next time as we continue to explore your pharmacy career journey.